After a few week of trying to get our schedules to align, I finally had the chance to chat with Michael Schwartz and Tyler Nilson, the writer/directors behind THE PEANUT BUTTER FALCON. I had the opportunity to see the film before its release and was completely charmed by the whimsical adventure story of a young man with Down Syndrome (Zack Gottsagen) who is on the lam with another troubled soul (Shia LaBeouf). Check out my review here. I really adored the film- not only for its inclusion of a lead character with cognitive disabilities, but also because it is a gorgeous love letter to the landscape and people of the Outer Banks area of North Carolina. So, without further ado, check out my conversation with Schwartz and Nilson.
Annette Kellerman:
How did you find Zack and how did the PEANUT BUTTER FALCON come about?
Michael Schwartz :
I mean, Zack might have found us. We knew Zack for three years before we started writing the script. We met at a camp for people with and without disabilities in Los Angeles. We were making a short film with Zack, and he's making really good acting decisions. He'd been studying acting his whole life, since he was three years old. He was having a conversation with as at dinner one night and he said, "I want to be a movie star." And we had sort of that frank conversation- it's hard for anybody to be a movie star, but there's also not a lot of roles written for people with down syndrome. And he just sort of stepped into the space and said, "Cool, why don't you guys write and direct it. I'll star, we'll make it together. We don't need anybody else."
Kellerman:
That is terrific! Since you two wrote and directed, did you find yourself taking a different approach when writing for a character with down syndrome? In particular, you went for it and used the R word in the movie. Can you talk a little bit about anything different or not different you did in the writing, and also using that controversial term?
Schwartz :
Yeah. Yeah. I would say like any character that we write, we try and make it authentic, as authentic as possible. So, like writing for a fisherman- Tyler knows a lot about crab fishing. He grew up on the Outer Banks, so we would try to make that authentic. Likewise writing for a character with down syndrome... we spent a lot of time with Zack, took road trips with him for a year while we were writing the script. And a lot of the dialogue that's in the movie or in the script are things he would say to us. He really loves wrestling. He not only experiences joy, but experiences frustration in real life like his character does in the movie. So, we really wanted to have a well-rounded character.
Schwartz :
And then, to speak to the R word. We thought about it for a long time. We talked to Michelle Sie Whitten at the Global Down Syndrome Foundation and Timothy Shriver at Special Olympics and Anthony Shriver at Best Buddies and they all said, "Please, please show the full range of experience that somebody with Down syndrome goes through. And bullying and use of that word is part of it." And so, part of even diving deeper into the authentic portrayal is also the authentic portrayal of the bullying and the hardship. So, the request was made unanimously, "Please do not shy away from that word. Please include it."
Kellerman:
As far as casting the other roles, did you have to take any special care in that regard? I mean, not every actor is, I don't know, patient or empathetic enough to handle it. Can you talk a little bit about casting Shia, and Dakota, and all the other characters?
Schwartz :
Yeah, I mean, I think when we started out to make it, we thought we were just going to make it really small. And we couldn't get even people to help us make it for $30K and we're gonna make it with four people. And then, the script started catching on and we made a proof of concept, like a trailer that showed the world and Zack acting in it and started to send that around. That's when doors started to open. So, Albert Berger and Ron Yerxa, are producers that made LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE, and ELECTION, and NEBRASKA, and they got it. I think very specifically they said we want to make that movie- that movie that we saw in the proof of concept, that five minutes. And I also think it helped in the casting. One, because Albert and Ron had relationships with Shia, and Bruce Dern, and John Hawkes, and they knew Dakota, but then also each of those actors was able to see what we are doing. So, they saw how Zack was in scenes, we had conversations with them, like really connected conversations about where the story came from, and what they were going through in their lives and we might be able to tap into to make their characters more authentic and connected. I don't think we treated it really different than casting anything else, but it was, it was like, "Yeah, are these people going to work well together? Are they going to connect to the story?" And the fact that they showed up for... We didn't have a lot of money. Everybody did it for a minimum. So, it really was about being of service to the story and caring. And I'm so grateful to everybody that showed up. I mean down to John Bernthal from THE PUNISHER, doesn't have any lines. And he came out because he wanted to be of service. And Shia wanted to have him out because he felt like his brother. I think we really got lucky with everyone that we cast.
How did you find Zack and how did the PEANUT BUTTER FALCON come about?
Michael Schwartz :
I mean, Zack might have found us. We knew Zack for three years before we started writing the script. We met at a camp for people with and without disabilities in Los Angeles. We were making a short film with Zack, and he's making really good acting decisions. He'd been studying acting his whole life, since he was three years old. He was having a conversation with as at dinner one night and he said, "I want to be a movie star." And we had sort of that frank conversation- it's hard for anybody to be a movie star, but there's also not a lot of roles written for people with down syndrome. And he just sort of stepped into the space and said, "Cool, why don't you guys write and direct it. I'll star, we'll make it together. We don't need anybody else."
Kellerman:
That is terrific! Since you two wrote and directed, did you find yourself taking a different approach when writing for a character with down syndrome? In particular, you went for it and used the R word in the movie. Can you talk a little bit about anything different or not different you did in the writing, and also using that controversial term?
Schwartz :
Yeah. Yeah. I would say like any character that we write, we try and make it authentic, as authentic as possible. So, like writing for a fisherman- Tyler knows a lot about crab fishing. He grew up on the Outer Banks, so we would try to make that authentic. Likewise writing for a character with down syndrome... we spent a lot of time with Zack, took road trips with him for a year while we were writing the script. And a lot of the dialogue that's in the movie or in the script are things he would say to us. He really loves wrestling. He not only experiences joy, but experiences frustration in real life like his character does in the movie. So, we really wanted to have a well-rounded character.
Schwartz :
And then, to speak to the R word. We thought about it for a long time. We talked to Michelle Sie Whitten at the Global Down Syndrome Foundation and Timothy Shriver at Special Olympics and Anthony Shriver at Best Buddies and they all said, "Please, please show the full range of experience that somebody with Down syndrome goes through. And bullying and use of that word is part of it." And so, part of even diving deeper into the authentic portrayal is also the authentic portrayal of the bullying and the hardship. So, the request was made unanimously, "Please do not shy away from that word. Please include it."
Kellerman:
As far as casting the other roles, did you have to take any special care in that regard? I mean, not every actor is, I don't know, patient or empathetic enough to handle it. Can you talk a little bit about casting Shia, and Dakota, and all the other characters?
Schwartz :
Yeah, I mean, I think when we started out to make it, we thought we were just going to make it really small. And we couldn't get even people to help us make it for $30K and we're gonna make it with four people. And then, the script started catching on and we made a proof of concept, like a trailer that showed the world and Zack acting in it and started to send that around. That's when doors started to open. So, Albert Berger and Ron Yerxa, are producers that made LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE, and ELECTION, and NEBRASKA, and they got it. I think very specifically they said we want to make that movie- that movie that we saw in the proof of concept, that five minutes. And I also think it helped in the casting. One, because Albert and Ron had relationships with Shia, and Bruce Dern, and John Hawkes, and they knew Dakota, but then also each of those actors was able to see what we are doing. So, they saw how Zack was in scenes, we had conversations with them, like really connected conversations about where the story came from, and what they were going through in their lives and we might be able to tap into to make their characters more authentic and connected. I don't think we treated it really different than casting anything else, but it was, it was like, "Yeah, are these people going to work well together? Are they going to connect to the story?" And the fact that they showed up for... We didn't have a lot of money. Everybody did it for a minimum. So, it really was about being of service to the story and caring. And I'm so grateful to everybody that showed up. I mean down to John Bernthal from THE PUNISHER, doesn't have any lines. And he came out because he wanted to be of service. And Shia wanted to have him out because he felt like his brother. I think we really got lucky with everyone that we cast.
Kellerman:
Yeah, it was incredible chemistry across the board. Can you talk a little bit about the fact that the film is a fabulous love letter to the Outer Banks area? I mean it's gorgeous. You said one of you grew up in that area.
Tyler Nilson:
Are you from or do you know the Outer Banks well?
Kellerman:
I do not. I've only been in low country area a couple times in my life. But it was just so... I could tell one of you were from there because it just captured that special essence.
Nilson:
Yeah. I'm from the Outer Banks and it's a place that's really special to my heart. I grew up on an island off the coast of the Carolinas that was really blue collar and filled with really unique, colorful people that were living very different, unique lives. I got to experience this moment in time where, I grew up in Colleton and Hardeeville, there weren't even police officers there. It was like a real wild place to grow up. I don't even think I realized how unique it was until I left and I got to be like "Oh, I kinda went out "into the world" in finger quotes, and was like, "Whoa, not everywhere is like this." And so, I think when writing about it and showing it, theres something... I wanted to show the South in a really beautiful way. I wanted to show the landscape, the earth, like I wanted to show the wides and the expansiveness. And I know growing up as a kid, we'd be running around in boats and living really kind of wild- like wild kids do. And it really spoke to a deeper part of me to get to do that out in nature. I wasn't in a city, I was always in nature. So, I wanted to show that.
Kellerman:
Definitely, definitely. And then, just the cast of supporting characters, you handled so lovingly. I mean they're real people, but you did it in a way that didn't feel like stereotypical or like, "Oh, here's a bunch of Hicks." I mean because I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma. So, I kind of felt that same vibe. You love those people. Those are your people.
Nilson:
For sure. For sure. Yeah, it's interesting. The times we're living in now and the analogy of the times we're living now, I'm trying to say as well. I think it's really common for people like, "Oh it's North Carolina, let's make everybody bad. And the South's the bad guy and these people are bad because they dress like this and they..." And we didn't want to do that. We're asking you with this film to do a little bit more nuanced thinking and be like, "No, nothing's all black or white, good or bad.".
Kellerman:
Totally.
Nilson:
People are humans and we're asking you to kind of dive into accept that with all the characters. I grew up in a really unique kind of place where people are really different. I'm pretty liberal and a lot where I grew up, wasn't always like that. But I still love those people that I grew up with. Because people think differently than I do. My mom's pretty hippy and, again, pretty liberal and just because I grew up with these people who don't see exactly like me, they're not my enemy. They're not somebody that I'm like, "All right, let's get these guys and really make them look terrible." I still love all those people I grew up with even though they don't think exactly like me. And I actually think that to have effect and change in this world sometimes it's kind of important to approach people that you see differently or think differently than you with love and like, "Hey, I'm actually really curious. Can you explain to me your point of view on that? Or can you talk to me about this?" Because when we approach things with love and acceptance of one another, all of a sudden the platform to listen and be open with each other, it's a lot to lot easier. Broader.
Kellerman:
Are you from or do you know the Outer Banks well?
Kellerman:
I do not. I've only been in low country area a couple times in my life. But it was just so... I could tell one of you were from there because it just captured that special essence.
Nilson:
Yeah. I'm from the Outer Banks and it's a place that's really special to my heart. I grew up on an island off the coast of the Carolinas that was really blue collar and filled with really unique, colorful people that were living very different, unique lives. I got to experience this moment in time where, I grew up in Colleton and Hardeeville, there weren't even police officers there. It was like a real wild place to grow up. I don't even think I realized how unique it was until I left and I got to be like "Oh, I kinda went out "into the world" in finger quotes, and was like, "Whoa, not everywhere is like this." And so, I think when writing about it and showing it, theres something... I wanted to show the South in a really beautiful way. I wanted to show the landscape, the earth, like I wanted to show the wides and the expansiveness. And I know growing up as a kid, we'd be running around in boats and living really kind of wild- like wild kids do. And it really spoke to a deeper part of me to get to do that out in nature. I wasn't in a city, I was always in nature. So, I wanted to show that.
Kellerman:
Definitely, definitely. And then, just the cast of supporting characters, you handled so lovingly. I mean they're real people, but you did it in a way that didn't feel like stereotypical or like, "Oh, here's a bunch of Hicks." I mean because I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma. So, I kind of felt that same vibe. You love those people. Those are your people.
Nilson:
For sure. For sure. Yeah, it's interesting. The times we're living in now and the analogy of the times we're living now, I'm trying to say as well. I think it's really common for people like, "Oh it's North Carolina, let's make everybody bad. And the South's the bad guy and these people are bad because they dress like this and they..." And we didn't want to do that. We're asking you with this film to do a little bit more nuanced thinking and be like, "No, nothing's all black or white, good or bad.".
Kellerman:
Totally.
Nilson:
People are humans and we're asking you to kind of dive into accept that with all the characters. I grew up in a really unique kind of place where people are really different. I'm pretty liberal and a lot where I grew up, wasn't always like that. But I still love those people that I grew up with. Because people think differently than I do. My mom's pretty hippy and, again, pretty liberal and just because I grew up with these people who don't see exactly like me, they're not my enemy. They're not somebody that I'm like, "All right, let's get these guys and really make them look terrible." I still love all those people I grew up with even though they don't think exactly like me. And I actually think that to have effect and change in this world sometimes it's kind of important to approach people that you see differently or think differently than you with love and like, "Hey, I'm actually really curious. Can you explain to me your point of view on that? Or can you talk to me about this?" Because when we approach things with love and acceptance of one another, all of a sudden the platform to listen and be open with each other, it's a lot to lot easier. Broader.
Kellerman:
I love that answer.
Nilson:
Thank you by the way, because I've got... I was like, I'm tap dancing around this, like trying to find some rhythm here. But it's tough to talk about. Sometimes, I think it's really easy to sensationalize news like, "Hey, this is bad and this is good." And so, it's really challenging to be like, "Wow, maybe not everything is all bad and all good. Maybe there's a middle road here where we can start kind of looking at each other and accepting each other a little bit." And that's a tough thing to even talk about. But that being said, like with Zack, our lead character has Down syndrome. And as filmmakers we had to really slow down for him and adjust to him and, in fact, change our shooting style for him. The way he approaches change as an actor and a storyteller is really different than other actors. And it wasn't about making him adhere to us. It was about us bending for him and going, "Oh, Zack, no matter what we do, Zack's always going to be Zack and he's going to have Down syndrome and that's okay." Instead of saying, "It's impossible for him to star in a feature film." Well, then let's just shift the paradigm. Be like, "No, it's possible." We have to learn how to adjust to him. We have to see him for an unique and beautiful individual that has his own approach to this industry. And let's all really dive into how can we be of service to Zack, how can we help Zack out right now?" And that's... I think our film really is giving people a lot of like love and hope... Filling people with love and hope. And I think it's because, you know, even Shia talks about it like, "We didn't approach it as I'm doing it like this." Shia didn't approach it and like, "I'm the movie star, I come in, I do it like this and you follow me." It wasn't going to work like that. The whole film would've just fallen apart if anybody on set had done this. We had to go, "Right, what's Zack's pace? How does that work?" Let's adhere to, let's adjust to that. Because Zack is our, he's number one on the call sheet. He's the star. Let's make sure that we're here being of service to him and the story because we don't have a Tom Hanks doing Forrest Gump. And I love Tom Hanks, I love that movie, but we know we're doing something different. We're doing more of like a Rain Man for real.
Kellerman:
Exactly.
Nilson:
And it's a lot more challenging, but we're going to do it like this and yes it's going to be slower and yes it's going to be different, but we're going to run it like this.
Kellerman:
Right. Some people just have a different set of instructions. Once you figure out the instructions, you're off.
Nilson:
Yes.
Nilson:
Thank you by the way, because I've got... I was like, I'm tap dancing around this, like trying to find some rhythm here. But it's tough to talk about. Sometimes, I think it's really easy to sensationalize news like, "Hey, this is bad and this is good." And so, it's really challenging to be like, "Wow, maybe not everything is all bad and all good. Maybe there's a middle road here where we can start kind of looking at each other and accepting each other a little bit." And that's a tough thing to even talk about. But that being said, like with Zack, our lead character has Down syndrome. And as filmmakers we had to really slow down for him and adjust to him and, in fact, change our shooting style for him. The way he approaches change as an actor and a storyteller is really different than other actors. And it wasn't about making him adhere to us. It was about us bending for him and going, "Oh, Zack, no matter what we do, Zack's always going to be Zack and he's going to have Down syndrome and that's okay." Instead of saying, "It's impossible for him to star in a feature film." Well, then let's just shift the paradigm. Be like, "No, it's possible." We have to learn how to adjust to him. We have to see him for an unique and beautiful individual that has his own approach to this industry. And let's all really dive into how can we be of service to Zack, how can we help Zack out right now?" And that's... I think our film really is giving people a lot of like love and hope... Filling people with love and hope. And I think it's because, you know, even Shia talks about it like, "We didn't approach it as I'm doing it like this." Shia didn't approach it and like, "I'm the movie star, I come in, I do it like this and you follow me." It wasn't going to work like that. The whole film would've just fallen apart if anybody on set had done this. We had to go, "Right, what's Zack's pace? How does that work?" Let's adhere to, let's adjust to that. Because Zack is our, he's number one on the call sheet. He's the star. Let's make sure that we're here being of service to him and the story because we don't have a Tom Hanks doing Forrest Gump. And I love Tom Hanks, I love that movie, but we know we're doing something different. We're doing more of like a Rain Man for real.
Kellerman:
Exactly.
Nilson:
And it's a lot more challenging, but we're going to do it like this and yes it's going to be slower and yes it's going to be different, but we're going to run it like this.
Kellerman:
Right. Some people just have a different set of instructions. Once you figure out the instructions, you're off.
Nilson:
Yes.
Kellerman:
So Zack is the one who brought the wrestling element to the story? I am so not really a wrestling person, but years ago I saw the documentary about Mick Foley, Mankind. And so, forever he's always been like my favorite pro wrestler. And then, I see him in the film! At first, it took me awhile to realize it was him and then, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, it's fricking Mankind!" I'm so excited.
Nilson:
I know, I know. Yeah, no, yeah, that's Zack's favorite wrestler. We had to really, again, adjust for Zack. We had to sort of custom tailor the script to him and something we wanted to be really aware of is if we wrote a movie about chess and the end of the movie is this chess match, Zack wasn't going to be excited to even go on that journey. We wanted to create as much opportunity for him to succeed. And also wrestling's kind of kick ass, different, weird, and beautiful and fun and Southern and strange. And so Zack loves wrestling. He loves it. And Mankind is his favorite wrestler and he loves Mick Foley. He's obsessed with him and carries wrestling magazines in his backpack. So, to keep that excitement high. We had to adjust accordingly and be, "Cool. I guess it's wrestling now." That's how we're going to write this script. We're going to tailor it for Zack and also we're going to see if we can get Mick Foley involved to be in it. And Jake the Snake as well. I don't know if you know that Sam is Jake the Snake. So, like Shia showed up and Zack was like, "What's up man? I watch Even Stevens. That's really cool." You know, like Dakota showed up and he was like, "Oh hey, Dakota, cool." We're like, "That's great. Nice to meet you." When Nick Foley and Jake the Snake showed up, he basically was like full fanboy. He was like nerding out and we got real authentic performances out of Zack and his excitement because he got to experience that with these guys.
Kellerman:
Oh, that's so cool! And was Mick Foley, I mean, was he totally on board or did it take some persuasion?
Nilson:
Mick Foley, no. He is one of the most kind and empathetic human beings I've ever met. I don't know if you know this about him, but he actually like volunteers at I believe a suicide prevention hotline posted by... there's a musician, what's her name? Might be Sarah McLaughlin or something like that, but he's a really rad dude who does these hotlines not as, "Hey, there's Mick Foley and his hotline." He's just a guy on the other end of the phone giving his time to people who might need to call in and are having a tough time during the holidays. But yeah, I love that man. I think he saw what we were doing and I think he saw that we have a lot of heart and came in and was like, "I want to be a part of this." And really, really showed up for us.
Kellerman:
Oh, that's great. That's such a cool story. I did not know any of that about him. So, that is even better. How has the film been received? I mean, by the special needs community?
Nilson:
I mean I guess everything I've read- except for that one YouTube comment- sounds like everything's been really positive and sweet and people are really loving it. Again, I think there's a lot of hope and love around our film and I think people are responding because of that. We have a pretty high Rotten Tomatoes score and I haven't read anything terribly, terribly bad. You know, I guess one person said, "This is just a typical hero's journey." And I was like, I guess I don't really know many movies that aren't, but... So yeah, we're doing right. It feels really good to have made something I think is giving people a lot of good feels. I was in Bloomington, Indiana two weeks ago showing the film to a large group of people, and a mother came up to me afterwards and she was like, "My son has Down syndrome and he just graduated college and he can't get a job. And I'm so grateful you guys. If people watch this film, my son might be able to get a job. People might start actually adjusting towards to him and accepting him for who he is and not just going, you have nothing to offer here." And I didn't realize the extent of which this message might be received, but it is pretty cool. You know, my friends just wanted to make a movie with our friend Zack because he's a great actor. And now it's like, "Oh wow, we might've made something bigger, bigger here than we realized." It's really exciting and really cool.
Kellerman:
That's so cool. So, I mean, I guess in general the reception from the whole special needs community has been one of just relief that they get an honest portrayal of a character that happens to have a chromosomal situation.
Schwartz :
Yeah. Ain't it cool?
Kellerman:
Ha! Yes it is. It's kind of like what the South Park guys did with Timmy. Some people initially were offended and I'm like, "No! They're treating Timmy like a normal person and not handling him with kid gloves and showing that this is someone you treat just like an average person." So, I kind of put it in that category.
Schwartz :
Funny because I'm like, I don't know we did that. But yeah, I don't think we treated with kid gloves. I love Zack. I think he did a phenomenal job as an actor too. For me as a friend of his- even beyond the film- I'm just so proud. Like Zack has Down syndrome and what people thought he couldn't do, which was starring to feature film and do a good job, Zack holds his own and kind of steals steam from Oscar nominated actors like Bruce Stern and John Hawkes and Thomas Haden Church. And he's on par, he's swinging, he's up there acting and doing a fantastic job next to Shia LaBeouf and Dakota Johnson. People said that was impossible a year ago. People are like, "Nope. That's never going to happen." And I'm so proud of his performance because he really does hold his own and crush it.
Kellerman:
I think it's so amazing.
Nilson:
Thank you.
Kellerman:
And they're probably gonna cut me off here pretty soon. One quick question. So, it sounds like you got a lot from Zack. Was there stuff that you had to leave out instead of like, you know, trying to get more from him? It sounds like maybe there was so much good stuff that you had to cut some.
Schwartz :
No. I mean we had a really short shooting schedule just because that's the way independent films are and we were... everything we shot was great. But no, nothing, nothing I can think of that we had lose.
Kellerman:
Okay, cool. So not whole lot of time to be playing around, I take it.
Schwartz :
Right. I was like, you have two hours to get the scene, shoot it from four angles and move on. And luckily like our actors were prepared and enabled us to act really quickly.
Kellerman:
Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today. I've been so excited to talk to you guys. Congratulations on such a wonderful film!
Schwartz :
Awesome. Thank you so much. And yeah, just thanks for taking the time with us this afternoon.
Nilson:
Thank you.
I had so many more questions for the filmmakers, but alas, they are super busy promoting their terrific little film- especially since THE PEANUT BUTTER FALCON has now expanded to even more theaters nationwide. Don't miss your chance to see the heartwarming adventure on the big screen now!
Rebecca Elliott
aka Annette Kellerman
